Playing with a Big Band

**JoesMechanic** · June 1st, 2005, 01:35 AM

Thanks for the post Peter, as always, it's a pleasure reading your posts. So full of experience and insight.

Another form of music to my ears!! [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

**rafaeldm** · June 1st, 2005, 01:45 AM

Originally posted by Henry II:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rafael Dolinski:
Hi, I started studying Ted Reed's Syncopation book today (Thanks DeeP_FRieD). I think reading will help me a lot not just to play the big band charts but to read and write anything I want.

Raf, the Syncopation book is a great, versatile book, but it won't do much for drum chart interpretation. One more time: "Chart Reading Workbook for Drummers" by Bobby Gabriel.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks Henry, I will try to buy the book you recommended, by the end of this week.

Peter Erskine! I love your playing with Jaco Pastorius and with Steps Ahead! Thank you for your help on this thread!

I enjoyed this thread, helped me a lot, thank you all!

**Henry II** · June 1st, 2005, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Rafael Dolinski:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Henry II:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rafael Dolinski:
Hi, I started studying Ted Reed's Syncopation book today (Thanks DeeP_FRieD). I think reading will help me a lot not just to play the big band charts but to read and write anything I want.

Raf, the Syncopation book is a great, versatile book, but it won't do much for drum chart interpretation. One more time: "Chart Reading Workbook for Drummers" by Bobby Gabriel.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks Henry, I will try to buy the book you recommended, by the end of this week.

Peter Erskine! I love your playing with Jaco Pastorius and with Steps Ahead! Thank you for your help on this thread!

I enjoyed this thread, helped me a lot, thank you all!<hr /></blockquote>Raf, I'm telling you, if you work on this book for an hour a day, in a few months you'll get through it and you'll be a better chart reader than 90% of the drummers out there. It has an instructional section up front that you need to read carefully and understand. It explains set-ups, ensemble figures, section figures and provides you with several sample set-ups and practice permutations on how to use them. You must master this part first. Then it has about 20 practice charts with a play along CD. The CD has 2 versions of each chart, with a drummer and without. That way you can hear the way it's supposed to sound and then you can play the chart without a drummer in the recording. The charts start off basic and get progressively more sophisticated and include some charts in 3/4 time toward the end.

It's the best book of its kind that I've seen.

[ May 31, 2005 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Henry II ]

**Dazzler** · June 1st, 2005, 03:05 AM

I think I see where you're coming from SDK and I would agree with your previous point about knowing the music and internalising it, without having to read. After all, when we buy an album, it should sound and feel great and we should not know or care if the guys were reading or not. It doesn't make the album better because the guys were reading, or conversly, had memorised the charts. You are clearly right about the types of music you mentioned where the players don't read a note, this is music that has been passed down from generations and it works without the need for pen and paper.

Well, how do you sit in with a Big Band and you don't know the music. Well friends. YOU DON'T! Not sitting in, or not subbing, does not mean you can't play the music of Big Band, just means you won't be getting the last minute sub calls. Big deal.

I would however disagree with the above comment, it IS a big deal to me and the vast majority of big band drummers (as this is specifically the type of music that this topic raised). In fact, I would go as far to say that I don't know of any working big band drummers who don't read. This I would say is extremely rare as it is imperative that a decent big band drummer worth his salt should be a competant reader. And please don't bring up Buddy Rich as an example of someone who didn't read, we KNOW this already and he was the exeption rather than the rule. He had the luxury of being a band leader that had writers working for his band and thus, learnt the charts prior to recording/gigging them.

The point is this: I am a workling drummer, it's how I make my living and pay the bills and as well as completely caring and giving a shit about music, why would I limit the work I get offered? To take your example of not getting a call to do a dep due to a lack of ability to read. This to me is ludicrous and indeed it transfers to reading music in any genre, not specifically big bands.

It is extremely rare that local big bands will post you a set in advance and have the drummer learn it. This near enough never happens and using this as an excuse to justify an inability to read is simply lazy and not living in the real world. I WANT to get and do get calls to do last minute gigs with big bands and don't think anything of sight reading 2 hours of hard dots - it's what I have been doing since I was 14/15 and I'm now 32.

We all speak English and apart from the odd Anglo/American differences, we all communicate sucessfully to each other via the means of typing. It is our common language and I feel the same way abolut music. I KNOW that when we put on a recording it should be of no interest whether the music was being read or not, but I fail to see how any sucessfull gigging musician can't read. Think about it, this would eliminate practically all sessions, big band gigs and all music that requires charts placed in front of them.

If you make your living from being a musician then you (at this point I realise that there are rare exptions to this) HAVE to read. FACT. Think about it, if a band leader knows you can't read then he will simply pass your name by and call the next guy on his list that can read. If not, it will soon be apparent, when he rings you up for a gig that you can't read and if there is no opportunity to have the music in advance of the gig, then once again, you've lost the gig and more importantly, will never get called for that band again. It may be the band that you have wanted to work with for ages and suddenly find yourself being blown out out because you never sat down and learnt about crotchets and quavers. It is also possible that your name will be passed around as someone who doesn't read and consequently other band leaders and musicians won't call you as they can't be arsed explaining ideas over and over to the drummer because of their inability to read.

Is this what we want?

**zmorton** · June 1st, 2005, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by SDK:
Henry, can you read english my man?
Apply it, now.
My post 3rd line down first sentence. come on man.

in answer to your question, ummmm...you get a recording of the arrangements, you learn them. Basic stuff.
I was just making the point that you can play music without reading it. Not always. Jeeeezus. Even above the guys said a million times. Not while subbing, sitting in, or not knowing the music ahead of time.

Go ahead, ask the same question again! hahaha... I feel like Samuel Jackson in Pulp Fiction. " Say What Again Mutha ^&*#@" The same thing over and over and over. It was already addressed up there. I'm new to this post. I read it. Why can't you? I'm saying that to all of you who ask the same thing over and over.

Well, how do you sit in with a Big Band and you don't know the music. Well friends. YOU DON'T! Not sitting in, or not subbing, does not mean you can't play the music of Big Band, just means you won't be getting the last minute sub calls. Big deal.

[ May 31, 2005 11:14 AM: Message edited by: SDK ]

I just can't stay away from this one [img]redface.gif[/img]

I've tried to cool this thing down a couple times since I was the one that said reading was a must in today's modern charts. For some reason I feel my posts, where I've tried to explain myself, have been totally ignored.

From my experience in Big Band playing I have come across some charts that were much to complicated to just learn by ear. I mentioned Bob Brookmeyer's "Nasty Dance" in one of my posts and this is one of those songs. This song is way to obscure to learn by ear alone; being able to read the chart was vital, for me, in the learning process. It gave me the information I needed in order to best compose the drum parts I decided to play. There are times in this song where the composer is asking specific things from the drummer that the ear alone most likely would not tell you. Has anyone else here played this song? I'd like to hear others take on this one. I do plan to post my playing on this one once I get a copy of the album I recorded with my university big band. Unfortunately this will likely be during the fall semester.

Back to the topic... In some modern/obscure/abstract (whatever you want to call them) charts, being able to read is a vital part in the learning process. I quote my original post: "...but in today's modern charts reading is a must." Never was it said that reading is a must in all big band playing, just in the more abstract/modern songs. I also said memorize the songs if possible. I thought that implied that I meant reading was part of learning the song, not playing the song. I should have been more clear with that the first time.

Let me also say that being able to read a chart is one more tool as a means to an end. That is all I'm saying. Sometimes that "end" is complicated enough that reading is required to meet that ?end.?

SDK, I have played newly composed songs in my university big band that have not been recorded and very obscure songs where recordings are out of print; making them very hard to track down. "Nasty Dance" was one of these songs. While I agree that finding a recording is one of the most important things in learning a song that is not always an option. So this would be another example where I would say reading is required; required to learn the song not play it. I'm not saying you don't agree with those examples but rather giving further rational as to why I said (back on page one) that reading is required modern charts.

Your comment about not sitting in with a Big Band if you do not know the songs is valid and a choice that the individual has to make. But for most of us that make our income playing drums, you may to... I don't know, don't have the luxury to not go to a gig when we get the call.

For example I recently got a call to sub a church gig not knowing the music at all. This gig paid well and as a full time student and a working musician I'd be stupid not to take it for the income and for the networking possibility. I went in cold and with less than an hour rehearsal the first service was on. I had to read during the first service to survive the gig but by the third service I had the tunes basically internalized. After the gig I was asked to be their first call sub. Now this example is not big band but my ability to read, and sight-read, is what made this gig a success and what will get me future work with them.

(edit: not 15 minutes after I posted this I got a call to sub two weekends in June from this same curch)

I do know a lot of big bands sight read charts every rehearsal just to keep their reading chops up. This would be another example of being able to read would be required, unless you know what tune the director is going to hand out ahead of time.

I've read this thread and I think most of us are saying the same things but the differences are in our individual processes we've found that work for us. Does the ability to read equal the ability to play great music? No, and I don't think that was ever said. Will the ability to read help you learn and play great music? I personally say yes. And are there some modern charts in the big band literature complicated enough that being able to read is required? In my experience I?d say yes to that as well.

[ May 31, 2005 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Zak Morton ]

**Flarobstix** · June 1st, 2005, 03:46 AM

Dazz appears to be a consumate pro. Great post!
Also Zak, great post.

Again, I saw no one justifying reading inability in any posts.
Just the simple observation, that this scenario does exist, and there are drummers that don't read a note, yet play the crap out of big band music. Be it rare, be it uncommon. The question I brought up in the first place, is do you absolutely have to read music to play in the big band style? The answer is still no, evident in both posts above. Sure in many cases YOU HAVE TO. And if you don't, you'll fail horribly.
Of course if you read, you'll work 90% more, of course knowing how will increase your chances of getting gigs. We know all that.

If I got called tommorow to sub at Swing 46 in NYC http://www.swing46.com/, I could do the whole gig without one peice of music. Why? Because I know the style of big band, and I know the arrangements which are classics. I can do that gig without reading a note. And Dazz, for some reason, here in NYC, MOST of the time a CD will accompany the charts.
It's a shame that this couldn't be agreed on in the first place, so we wouldn't have spent 5 pages on it. And Buddy is not the only one. He also was a very in demand sideman before he was a leader. Gene Krupa, Art Blakey, Grady Tate(i'm sticking to what i was told), Sam Woodyard, Chick Webb, Sid Catlett. These guys were not readers. I know some of them could read a little, but you never saw them with a music stand. What's the explanation there? They have innate talent?
In any case, thanks for being real Dazz.

[ May 31, 2005 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]

**Steve Holmes** · June 1st, 2005, 05:43 AM

I remember when Bobby was writing that book while he was teaching at MI. He's such a nice guy and great player as well. A quick google of his name didn't show much. Does he have a site?

**davfrancis** · June 1st, 2005, 08:33 AM

Couple of things:

I personally found Steve Houghton's Studio and Big Band Drumming book useful when I was at college - don't know if its still around bui I think it is worth checking out.

Secondly just a quick word to Erskoman - I have your Drumset Essentials books and I must say I love the Wayne Bergeron Waltz of the Flowers arrangement. That must have been great fun to play. The Rhythm Method recording is also great - LOVE the tenor solo though I am not sure who it is and don't have the book to hand.

Thirdly - I think I am right in saying that you recorded with Gordon Goodwin's band. If so could you direct me to the right disc(s) so I might check them out.

Thanks a million for sharing with us not only your wonderful playing but also some of your wisdom!

**Henry II** · June 1st, 2005, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Steve Holmes:
I remember when Bobby was writing that book while he was teaching at MI. He's such a nice guy and great player as well. A quick google of his name didn't show much. Does he have a site?

I picked up a copy of it at GC several years ago. BTW, I spelled his name wrong. It's "Gabriele." I did a Google search for the title of the book and found these sites that sell the book:

http://www.interstatemusic.com/webap...tegoryId=13032

http://www.steveweissmusic.com/catal...roducts_id/956

http://www.musicroom.com/se/ID_No/019221/details.html

http://musicbooksplus.com/product_in...roducts_id/753

I know Interstate and SteveWeiss are reputable dealers.

**likedachuch** · June 1st, 2005, 10:45 PM

thank you, peter for such a great post. such an honor to have you here.

steve, way to steer this board and this post in a positive direction.

i happened upon the intro to big band drumming by bobby gabriel that henry II found online. it's a great book. it boosted my confidence (cuz i can't read that well) and secondly, i found that i could apply his foundational approach to any context of music. a great book. good play along tracks as well.

thanks you guys for all your insights. this is one genre that i still feel is an 'everest' for me.

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